Overhaulin last night

[JC69Stang]

Anyone see the episode last night? They did a very nice 70 fastback with the second built BOSS 302 motor from Ford Racing. Really turned out nice I thought. And the motor sounded awesome. Not sure who they used for exhaust.




On a side note, my wheels and master cyl have arrived. Now I need to decide on the Disk brake adapters and kits that I want to use. I am leaning back to Mustang Steve so that both front and rear run the same Cobra brakes.
I will post pics once I use up the film. My digi cam broke and I never replaced it.

[R4K]

I saw the episode description as "The Boss is Back" and set it to record, will probably watch it on lunch or something (I try to give the wife a break from my "all car all the time" fixation, hehe).

I still have that "Wrecks to Riches" with the '69 Sportroof saved on the DVR, too, hehe.

[Thesubhumans]

Ya, i watched it last night but missed the first half unfortunatly. I also thought that the boss motor sounded really good too.
Did you see Katzkin leather interior? I thought that looked so good and was so excited that they made a leather interior for our cars but unfortunatly they don't:no: I guess it was a one time custom deal for overhaulin.

[BOSSJIM]

1. the car is a clone. Not a REAL BOSS 302
2. The motor in question, although a nice small block, is NOT a REAL BOSS 302 motor. Does NOT have cleveland heads.
3. As a board member on the BOSS Registry, i can tell you this car is not doing the REAL BOSS 302 cars any favors, but on the plus side, it is a FORD, and in my opinion looks nice, and there may be some positive things come from this, what they are i'm not sure at this point.

As an aside to my post, i must tell you guys i am one of many B2 owners who want the true history and legacy of the B2 to remain intact, and not get diluted. Sorry if i offended anyone with my take on this.

Chip Foose does nice work. However....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/bossjim/dicks3.jpg

[JC69Stang]

BOSSJIM,

I think most of us know the difference, and your cars are forever the original BOSS cars. I do think it is really cool that Ford decided to do these new engines. I also think they are about 10 years behind in doing it though. If a person doesn't know the difference, then it is all of our jobs to educate them or shoot them. Thats seems pretty reasonable to me!

[Pakrat]

I missed it but I'll have to check for the rerun.

As far as real Boss's go I think it's OK to be a purist so long as it doesn't get confused with being a Snob. Those in the hobby know the real deal so it's no threat to anyone and those who aren't in the hobby don't know a 65 from a 69' anyway so Mustang ignorance is an issue from them at any level from big to small.

My feeling in general is that not everyone can afford a real rare car so making yourself a clone that you can feel guilt free about driving is perfectly fine so long as it is an homage and not an attempt to scam someone. I would personally make a clone less than accurate just for that point. I had lots of GT and Mach/Boss accents on my convertible, I never said it was either though and never badged it as such for just that reason but I wouldn't let anyone tell me that I have no right to put a black out hood on my 302 vert let's say becasue it would confuse folks. When people assume the wrong thing like the inevitable guys at the pump that always come out with "Hey, is that a 67' Mach 1 Convertible? You got a 396 in that? I had one of those!" :huh: I politely take the time to correct and educate them before I'm on my way again.

I was never a trailer queen person and I always felt cars should be driven but I will say that since having a car totaled by another careless driver no matter how careful I was that I would not ever have the heart to drive a rare car on the road myself ever again. if I find myself in a situation where I could own one I'd make it a concourse queeen for all the world to envy and use as a true history reference and I'd make an esthetically looking modified clone of it built purely for perfomance that I could pound and drive the snot out of because I could not live with myself if a true piece of history came to an end on my watch after surviving for so many years in others folks hands.

Personally I have way more of an issue with folks and companies building silver and black versions of a car from an average B grade movie that is several years old now, seeing it every other month on every magazine still and worse yet endorsing it with the real creators blessing for an ungodly sum of money than I do someone who tries to copy a real car made for a real purpose back in the day.

[BOSSJIM]

The problem i have in being 'lucky' enough to have this B2 (inheritance money)...temporarily..i might add, because no one lives forever, is the job of being an owner of one of these cars and as you stated, 'correcting' people on the why's and whats of the car and the difference between a BOSS 302 and a Mach One...its kinda fun, but at the same time frustrating, and i know there are a lot of people who have never seen a B2 , but there are a lot of people who know exactly what they are.

My first car was a 65 Mustang Coupe, so i consider myself a stang guy, and will always be.

The B2 in my opinion is in the same league as a Shelby, and i have met some VERY snobbish owners, as well as some who would give you the shirt off there back, . I always try and be one of the guys, which i am, and have many friends who own Mustangs from restomods to 66 coupes in need of rust repair, to B9 owners and everything in between...its all good...but thats just me!...

Just got off work. I work nights, so its time for a beer even though its 9am here!...

Happy Thanksgiving to you all...!

[69grandecj]

I thought it look real nice.

I also feel Ford should have made this new "Boss" 302 more like the old with the Cleveland heads. I get tired of seeing so many Boss clones with F-code 302s and automatic transmissions. When you see a Hemi clone it has a Hemi.

[ForceFed70]

See I don't get why the Boss 302 guys are getting their underwear in a knot over this new BOSS 302 motor.

Cleveland heads or not, it's still not a "real" BOSS 302 engine. Everyone knows that unless it's an exact copy of the original engine, it'll never be a "real Boss 302" and even then, it'd be a clone not an original.

Plus, how dumb do you think people really are? They see a brand new fuel injected engine and they get confused and think it's a "real BOSS 302" engine from the 60's? If so, these are the same people who don't know a shelby from a grande in the 1st place.

If anything, this will raise awareness of the original BOSS 302 engines/cars and make them MORE desireable and known to the public. Look what Gone in Sixty Seconds did! There are millions of new "classic mustang muscle" fans because of this movie. It's driven the price of the classic fastbacks up considerably because of increased demand. And while the elenor fad was a little annoying, it's mostly over now and has driven up demand and awareness of the classic mustangs considerably.

The original boss 302 owners will do nothing but benifit from this new engine.

[bnickel]

i definitely agree the new boss 302 should have cleveland heads or at the very least a set of Yates heads since they are already in the catalog. maybe they'll get edelbrock to cast them some of the new cleveland heads with ford parts numbers later down the road. time will tell i guess.

overall, i like the car excpet for the "arrows" on the hood graphics and the dash was "unfinished" to say the least. they went to all the trouble of getting the deluxe upholstery done in leather and then used standard door panels, the woodgrain dash and the standard passenger side insert. i mean come on guys. the gambler car at least had the JME dash and deluxe door panels.

i'd be willing to bet that Katzkin would make the seat covers if someone was willing to pay for them. they do say somewhere on their site that they'll do custom stuff.

[69grandecj]

Bnickel I agree with you. The hood part of the striping wasn't done right. I had forgotten that about the interior but you are right. It had deluxe on the drivers side and standard on the passenger side. That's probably how they got it and didn't think about matching them.

[Protowrxs]

Checks Tivo...
No nothing Overhaulin.. :(

Guess I'll have to catch it later on.

[bnickel]

Bnickel I agree with you. The hood part of the striping wasn't done right. I had forgotten that about the interior but you are right. It had deluxe on the drivers side and standard on the passenger side. That's probably how they got it and didn't think about matching them.


it was how they got it, but they should have done something different. even the year one dash bezel with autometer gauges in black would have been better than mismatched. they usually do a bunch of cool interior stuff one these cars especially with the dashboards. i have a feeling they are losing sponsors though. there have been a lot of things that they used to do all the time but don't do anymore. like the sparco seats they used to always do and all the different aftermarket vendors have been fewer and fewer letely. i hate to say it but i think this will be the last season for overhaulin, or maybe one more if we're lucky.


my wife asked me last night why i don't just submit car for an overhaul and have someone else do all the work. i said it's because i'm too picky. i get a vision of what the car should like in my head and absolutely want it done the way i want it. after the car was done, she understood what i was talking about, she didn't like the hood graphics either.

[Protowrxs]

...my wife asked me last night why i don't just submit car for an overhaul and have someone else do all the work.

No way for me either.. Part of the fun to me is actually doing the work myself and figuring it all out. I would take the money though.. lol

-Stephen

[369coupes]

i didnt care for the grafix on the hood either , correct me if im wrong but doesnt the one guy put a shaker plate on top of the aircleaner lid then they put on the standard scoop?
my major complant (too strong of a word) is why did they buy a whole nother front clip just to replace the passenger side appron and frame why didnt they do all us home rebuilders a favor and replace them with repo parts to get a idea of how its done??? the other thing i didnt like was them painting the tailight bezels all black i think it would of looked tons better with chrome around them and i wouldnt have put the boss 302 letters on the side

now as to the the boss clone vs original ,oh man i hope this doesnt turn into the crap that you have to listen to when you talk to a hemi mopar or cuda challenger guys. those ORIGINAL HEMI GUYS and the concourse paint daub , and crap guys have ruined the mopar hobby for all of us that want to have fun with an old car (the main reason i now own mustangs again) allthough i had been looking for a mustang for years to replace the ones i used to own , but all thier whining and crying and driving prices way up on junk really drove me back to fords. original is nice and very cool BUT i like originality meaning make it the way you want and enjoy the crap out of it and dont bash or beat down a guy or his car because he didnt build it the way you think it should be done if you dont like it say i dont like it and walk on to me a car is totally useless if it sits on a trailer or in a museum because its intended use was to be used until it wasnt any good then be thrown away for a newer one
i can understand guys who have TONS of money in thier cars from either paying for it at an auction , or doing a checkbook resto , or from getting out there in the garage and rebuilding a rusted out hunk of junk into thier dream machine . not wanting to drive it every day but they are all meant to be and supposed to be driven so drive them enjoy them (wrecks, rain, dirt , scrathes ) are all part of life for a car and they ad charactor (except for the wrecks of course) so what is my point to my rambling.....i dont know , i forgot must be getting old :(

after being in the mopar only world for the last 16 or so years i really started not enjoying the hobby cause all the fun factor was taken out of it it was very refreshing to me to come back into the ford world and actually being able to enjoy going to a show or a swap meet again (without feeling like i was on a business trip)
ford guys have one good thing going for them and thats the MARTY REPORTS you cant fake them and as long as those are availible i dont think people will ever have to worry about wether the BOSS 302 they are looking at is legit or not
now the owners of original bosses may have to worry about wether or not the boss that just beat them at the local car show for a 20.00 dollar trophy is real or not but is that why you dumped all that money into your car? to win a lousy 20.00 trophy?????????????????

[R4K]

But just think...you could then pick up another pony and start all over again! Cuz I agree with you guys on wanting to do this stuff myself...I don't know what I'd do with myself if I ever got mine "finished." Luckily, she seems determined to never let that happen. =)

I didn't notice the things you guys did, except for the hood stripes...which I honestly didn't mind. It set the car as a one-off, and subtly identified it as a non-original...an ode. Admittedly though, I like Foose's work...except for his fixation on 18" rims (but at least he got rid of the stinkbug stance it came in with).

I'll need to watch it again, but I could have sworn I saw them taking a cutting torch to the coil springs to get them out. I saw the Firemen do it on Wrecks to Riches, but they were not pros, so they could be excused. Did they not have a $30 coil compressor around, lol?

Overall, I think they did a damn good job. Much, much better than Barry White's team did on the '69. Although the other part of that 2-part-series on Wrecks to Riches was Barry White's team modding an '05/'06, and they ended up making it a very retro nod to the Boss...and was probably the coolest thing I'd ever seen come out of Barry's shop. I honestly think they got robbed by not winning, all the others were modern-day blingmobiles. =(

The only thing that would have really set off Foose's Boss is if AJ had left a pretty little heart-shaped assprint on the hood. :asshole:

[bnickel]

actualy for a Foose paint job this one was pretty subdued, i just didn't care for the hood "arrows" is all. i also like the falt black hoods to be falt black as well not shiny. i think it was kind of cool the way they combined the 70 boss strips with the 69 blackout "style" hood but the arrows just bothered me for some reason. i aslo didn't mind the Boss 302 callout either since the car does have a ford racing "Boss 302" now whether the ford racing is really a boss motor without the cleve style heads is still very debatable, but at least the block pretty well fits the bill. i still think it needs some E'brock cleve heads with a ford part number to make it a real boss but....

i think the reason why this car didn't meet the standards we normally associate with Foos is that they are losing sponsors for whatever reason. that's why we didn't get to see a beter dash or the passenger apron/rail/tower reaplaced with new instead od used.

i'm not trying to knock on the guy's car at all, i'd bet he is very happy with it, i just don't think that it's Foosed enough and that's all i'm saying. i really like the fact that he has the mustang and the cougar as well, actually i'm a bit envious that gets to have both.

[mymach]

[quote=R4K;15079]
I'll need to watch it again, but I could have sworn I saw them taking a cutting torch to the coil springs to get them out. I saw the Firemen do it on Wrecks to Riches, but they were not pros, so they could be excused. Did they not have a $30 coil compressor around, lol?


It's a lot faster to just torch a spring to get it out than mess with setting up a compressor and cranking it down. If I'm not reusing the springs I'd do the same thing...and have. Time is of the essence. "Deconstruction", as they call it, may not be pretty but is pretty quick.

[70Coupe]

i read an article today that the onyl reason Ford is calling it a "Boss 302" engine is because of the similarities between the original Boss block and the new one, such a 4 bolt mains and screw in freeze plugs. personally i kept correcting the guys on overhaulin whenever they said, "we got the new Boss 302 enging from ford racing...." id say, "ITS NOT A REAL BOSS MOTOR YOU GUYS, check the valve covers, how many bolts do you see, yeah thats right only 6 NOT 8. ITS NOT A BOSS MOTOR!" but Ford is only callin them bosses for having 4 bolt mains and screw in plugs.

[bnickel]

ya know i can see calling it a boss BLOCK but i still don't agree with the whole boss engine thing, to me it's like any other boss block with windsor heads, a 302 with a kick ass block. that's all.

[351carlo]

So I'll slap my aussie cleveland heads and a 331 rotating assembly in it. Then it'll be a BOSS!

They should give me one so we can make it a true boss and showcase it....

[bnickel]

So I'll slap my aussie cleveland heads and a 331 rotating assembly in it. Then it'll be a BOSS!

They should give me one so we can make it a true boss and showcase it....

technically if you put those heads on a 4 bolt block with screw in freeze plugs that's pretty much exactly what you'd have. although calling it a boss 302 would be probably piss a few folks off, so i'd call it a boss "style" 302. LOL. technically the boss 302 guys don't consider any engine a boss 302 unless it actually came from the factory in a boss 302. so by that way of thinking even a crate replacement boss 302 wouldn't really be a boss 302 since it wasn't delivered in actual boss 302 car. i'm sure even that comment will ruffle a few feathers.

[BOSSJIM]

technically the boss 302 guys don't consider any engine a boss 302 unless it actually came from the factory in a boss 302. so by that way of thinking even a crate replacement boss 302 wouldn't really be a boss 302 since it wasn't delivered in actual boss 302 car. i'm sure even that comment will ruffle a few feathers.

Actually...and i speak from an authoritive position on this, a BOSS 302 is a motor, or engine. The body is a vessel for the BOSS 302 motor, and was given special treatment to accomadate the increase in horsepower, and also a special handling package was also added to give it the TRANS-AM street version option. Cougar Eliminators were also given the option for a BOSS 302 and special treatment like the Mustang.

Below are cast numbers for the BOSS 302 engine block, and any Mustang or Cougar with these blocks, coupled with the 'G' in the VIN and special factory treatments would be considered a BOSS 302 Mustang or Cougar Eliminator.

Here is a list of Boss block casting numbers:


very early 1969 C8OE-6015-B
1969 C8FE-6015-B
C9ZE-6015-A
C9ZE-6015-B
C8FE-6015-B
late 1969 D0ZE-6015-A D0ZE-6015-A

1970 D0ZE-6015-A
D0ZE-6015-B
D0ZE-6015-C
D0ZE-6015-B
D0ZE-6015-C

D1ZE-6015-B

If you have any of these blocks with cleveland heads and a 'G' in your VIN, then and only then can you be allowed to park next to the guys with the same set-up at an all FORD car show. Everything else is just a wannabe. Not being snobbish, just want to be correct.

I have a crated and in FORD boxes D1ZE-6015-B in my garage as a spare, but my 70 B2 Mustang has a 30 over BOSS replacement block with BOSS heads and etc etc...

[bnickel]

Actually...and i speak from an authoritive position on this, a BOSS 302 is a motor, or engine. The body is a vessel for the BOSS 302 motor, and was given special treatment to accomadate the increase in horsepower, and also a special handling package was also added to give it the TRANS-AM street version option. Cougar Eliminators were also given the option for a BOSS 302 and special treatment like the Mustang.

Below are cast numbers for the BOSS 302 engine block, and any Mustang or Cougar with these blocks, coupled with the 'G' in the VIN and special factory treatments would be considered a BOSS 302 Mustang or Cougar Eliminator.

Here is a list of Boss block casting numbers:


very early 1969 C8OE-6015-B
1969 C8FE-6015-B
C9ZE-6015-A
C9ZE-6015-B
C8FE-6015-B
late 1969 D0ZE-6015-A D0ZE-6015-A

1970 D0ZE-6015-A
D0ZE-6015-B
D0ZE-6015-C
D0ZE-6015-B
D0ZE-6015-C

D1ZE-6015-B

If you have any of these blocks with cleveland heads and a 'G' in your VIN, then and only then can you be allowed to park next to the guys with the same set-up at an all FORD car show. Everything else is just a wannabe. Not being snobbish, just want to be correct.

I have a crated and in FORD boxes D1ZE-6015-B in my garage as a spare, but my 70 B2 Mustang has a 30 over BOSS replacement block with BOSS heads and etc etc...



huh? i think you just said basically what i was saying. basically a boss 302 isn't an actual boss 302 unless it came from a G code car. i forgot to include the cougar, apologies. the service replacement engines were all D1ZE castings correct? so by that way of thinking even a D1ZE service replacement wouldn't be a true boss 302 because it didn't come from a G code car. i'm not saying that's how boss 302 guys see it just that is how someone might percieve it. obviously the only TRUE boss engine that SHOULD have a D casting would be a boss 351.


i'm also no trying to stir up a hornet's nest or anger anyone either so please don't take it that way. i'm just pointing out that Boss 302 guys are very particular. i have a friend that has a 69 boss 2 and it's missing the original engine, he knows the guy who has it but the guy won't sell it to him for a reasonable amount of money. he wants like 20k for it and it's original and crusty hasn't even been cleaned up at all. of course mu buddy can't afford that so he's going to build a clevor for the car and drive the crap out of it. a lot of boss 302 guys don't even consider the car a boss unless it has the correct engine or at least a correct date coded engine anyway.


most boss 302 guys are kind of snobby at least the ones that i've met anyway. not saying they are all that way because i have met a couple that were pretty cool. it's kind of the exact opposite of the typical mustang guy, most are friendly and a few are snobby.

[BOSSJIM]

'a lot of boss 302 guys don't even consider the car a boss unless it has the correct engine or at least a correct date coded engine anyway.'

Yea, i know those type, but they would be incorrect. A numbers matching BOSS 302 Mustang or Eliminator is pretty rare as these motors early on blew up due to piston failures, hence the replacement blocks which are considered by most true and knowledgable BOSS 302 experts i know of, to be correct BOSS 302 engines and are very much acceptable given the cast numbers and other ID marks like freeze plugs and 4 bolt mains.

The D1ZE, and 6015-c blocks are replacement blocks. Date codes are important to the concours crowd, an important part of the hobby, but so is restoring one to ALMOST stock form with imperfections, or the guy who likes to road race his. Its all good. Plenty of room for all types of owners.

Also, im a little confused by the statement that a BOSS 302 engine can't be a BOSS 302 engine unless it was pulled from a car with a 'G' in the VIN?..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/bossjim/DSCN0361.jpg

[bnickel]

personally i would think the new boss 302 blocks would be close enough for a non concourse show car although it would need some type of boss head or at the very least a cleveland head. of course that's just my opinion though.

[Pakrat]

Well, as long as we are still having this discussion about old and new and right and wrong let me pose this that I was thinking about yesterday. Let's put engine displacment aside for a second and just talk about the name BOSS since even though the new is a 302 there have also been a 351 and a 429 to share the same name. So given that and given the fact the it would seem so far for a 302 to be considered a Boss it needs to essentially be a 4 bolt block with the right heads and screw in freeze plugs, does that mean that this criteria also applys to the 351 and 429 versions? Is that what makes them deserve the right to be called a Boss as well? I mean heck, I can't see what the 429 has in common with any typical Ford engine of the time, it was way more like a hemi than anything else.

[bnickel]

for a boss 9 to be a truse boss 9 it does have to have the special 4 bolt block and the hemi heads for sure. the boss 351 really isn't anything but a 4 bolt 4v cleveland with a solid lifter cam and adjustable valvetrain. it does have the closed chamber heads too, but otherwise it's pretty much just your basic 351c.

[69_302RustangFB]

All the specs, unique characteristics, etc.. of the Boss braught up in this discussion is quite interestering, but since reading this I'm quite curious about the other parts of the engine such as valve covers and so forth and if there is a way to tell if these parts are truely Boss engine original or not; or does that stuff really even matter. I ask, simply because I always see on ebay, craigs list and other places, people listing parts for sale and stating that they are original Boss parts?

[Pakrat]

for a boss 9 to be a truse boss 9 it does have to have the special 4 bolt block and the hemi heads for sure. the boss 351 really isn't anything but a 4 bolt 4v cleveland with a solid lifter cam and adjustable valvetrain. it does have the closed chamber heads too, but otherwise it's pretty much just your basic 351c.

So then technically a 351Boss isn't in the same class as the others and probably also never deserved to be called one by the criteria we are setting. This to me kind of implies that even to Ford the term Boss was always just that, a term wihtout real specific definition and probably why they feel they can use it now for their current engine. It really just happens that the 302 or 5.0L as they called it for a while is just the most common size and more accesible to folks than a bigger engine size would be, so it shares the same exact name designation but I think if they called it a BOSS 5.0 most folks wouldn't have as much an issue about it diluting the legend of the famous one.

[BOSSJIM]

In case anyone has a question on if a part for sale advertised as a BOSS 302 part, i have a list of ALL part numbers relating to the BOSS 302 engine...only.

[bnickel]

All the specs, unique characteristics, etc.. of the Boss braught up in this discussion is quite interestering, but since reading this I'm quite curious about the other parts of the engine such as valve covers and so forth and if there is a way to tell if these parts are truely Boss engine original or not; or does that stuff really even matter. I ask, simply because I always see on ebay, craigs list and other places, people listing parts for sale and stating that they are original Boss parts?

well there are ways to tell genuine boss parts but i'm not an all out expert on Boss cars. in 69 the boss 302 woudl have had chrome valve covers and the 70 (and somelate production 69) would have finned aluminum with the complete absence of any kind of writing other than the boss 302 decal.

if you can get the casting number that will tell you definitively if the part is a true boss 302 piece

[bnickel]

So then technically a 351Boss isn't in the same class as the others and probably also never deserved to be called one by the criteria we are setting. This to me kind of implies that even to Ford the term Boss was always just that, a term wihtout real specific definition and probably why they feel they can use it now for their current engine. It really just happens that the 302 or 5.0L as they called it for a while is just the most common size and more accesible to folks than a bigger engine size would be, so it shares the same exact name designation but I think if they called it a BOSS 5.0 most folks wouldn't have as much an issue about it diluting the legend of the famous one.

well, it truly is a boss engine, it did have forged pistons and different stuff that made it a true boss engine, but it's not as radically different as the other 2.

i don't know about calling it a Boss 5.0, to me that harkens images of 82 mustang ads, "the Boss is back" and such.